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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 18:58:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Creed Richards
Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe?
CCP don't provide any such rewards, players do. Who decides how there goods should be transported and puts them in a cargo hold?
Originally by: Creed Richards
Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question.
Agreed, these are both 2 completely seperate discussion points, in my opinion. One deals with an area where pretty much anything goes and another where there is a high degree of safety.
Originally by: Creed Richards
But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot?
You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything?
Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?!
Why have you not done anything?
Because your are never supposed to be 100% invulnerable, its a game design point. I sincerly doubt it'll ever change.
Originally by: Creed Richards
But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters.
You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide.
Suiciding a freighter isn't exactly a piece of cake you know. Takes a lot of organisation and many pilots, and typically a lot of patience on the part of those pilots.
Originally by: Creed Richards
Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not?
Safe yes, 100% untouchable when your in it? No.
Originally by: Creed Richards
You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security.
Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec.
I completely agree that any player has just as much a right to play eve as any other. But any player cannot expect the game to be moulded around what they want. Thats the job of CCP employees.
I'd also tend to agree that a bit more protection for freightes in hi-sec may well be required. However as it stands this is the only way to hit 0.0 alliance freighters who hide their freighter alts in NPC corps. So a "bit more protection" does not mean invulnerable.
Originally by: Creed Richards
Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below.
Its been repeated time and time again that hi-sec is not supposed to be totally safe. You are supposed to be able to shoot whomever you wish as long as you accept the consequences of such actions. As it stands now the consequences are getting your ship destroyed by CONCORD.
Such suicide ganks have existed for a very long time in eve.
Saying that this is the same as the entire Eve universe being 0.4 or below is ludicrous.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 19:00:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Trojanman190
do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure?
A heck of a lot less than a failed suicide freighter gank ;)
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 20:15:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Turas Kain on 27/03/2007 20:12:05
Originally by: Humpalot
I don't know the math but a few times I have been faced with repairing a battleship in a station because I forgot a hull repper and boggle at the cost and in this case we are talking about only several thousand hit points. A failed suicide gank probably cost the attackers in the neighborhood of 500 million. I wouldn't be surprised if paying to rep that much was somewhere up there.
Its been a few months since I had an escaped freighter so things could have been changed. Last one I got down to approx 50% hull took 165 mil to repair. The number was provided by the target so he could have just lied too of couse.
Originally by: Tressia
This isn't really just about the freighter situation. This is more about this game going down the road of griefing rather than actual PVP.
*snip*
Ganking a freighter (or any other ship) is not generally the same as griefing. The objective in ganking said ships is generally to profit, or in some cases there is a tactical reason, causing grief to the target player is a side effect and no the aim.
Griefing by ganking (purely to cause grief to a player) in hi-sec will become very expensive for one thing effectively making it impossible to do for any length of time.
Removing insurance from CONCORD'd ships certainly seems like a reasonable step I'd think. A down side is it'd become more difficult to suicide on farmers but you cant really do this effectively anyway due to sec hit loses. Can dent them but not cause any significant damage.
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 20:20:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nicholas Barker
if you killed somebody IRL to take money from their wallet, but just as you shot them a cop car drove by and put you in jail, would a "friend" (alt) of yours be able to take the cash while the cops drag you away then give it to you while you're in jail or after you are free'd. If somebody gets popped in empire by somebody concord should impound the goods then drop them off at a station for you if they survive, although i wouldn't go as far as to say that the person who killed you should pay for the destroyed goods.
Real life comparasions aren't particuarly relevant to a game in any sense. If the above was in fact done then it'd make transporting anything in hi-sec 100% safe no matter what ship you use, as long as it fits in cargo hold.
I don't believe this is the intention but I can't say that for sure. What I can say is suiciding has been done for years and the above has never been implemented so it seems to not be as intended.
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 22:18:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tressia
The point is that there are people that will go to these extremes and suicide a freighter in order to profit. The person losing said freighter is the one being griefed (as the defination of the word points out). This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book.
I'm sorry but killing someone for profit is not griefing. Such an act does not make the aggressors griefers, they are taking advantage of a situation the freighter pilot has placed himself in.
Much like a trader who spots a competitor has misssed a zero on typing his market order. Trader buys the very low priced goods and sells at high profit, griefing?
Originally by: Aindrias
The "Real Life Doesn't Apply" arguement is usually used by those that "want to do whatever they want because they can" type.
Not the intention of my usage, I have never been part of a suicide gank on a freighter. Comparing real life to a game simply does not work on so many levels it'd take me too long to type them up.
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.27 23:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tressia
You obviously did not understand my statement.
*snip*
I seem to have understood what you said:
Originally by: Tressia
This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book.
You are incorrect, it is not griefing as I explained in my post. How common it is has no effect on wether it is griefing or not.
Why shouldn't freighters drop loot when all other ships do?
And a fix like this will make a big positive difference to a lot of people. Pretty annoying to pop a freighter which logs and get nothing for it.
Yes I'm quite confident Dev's sit thinking on ways to cause players pain. 
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.28 00:00:00 -
[7]
Yup, you got me there - by your opinion I'm probably a griefer.
My opinion could be you are a small jar of orange zest marmalade of course. It does not change the fact your are probably not 
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Turas Kain
Minmatar
Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:24:00 -
[8]
Suiciding a freighter is without risk? Whatever you've been drinking I want some!
For one thing if you don't manage to pop the freighter you've just lost approx 20 BS not to mentioned wasted all the time spent planning and organising. Lets say 30 mil loss per BS and your 600mil down. Mistakes happen, its already happened before.
Taking around 25 pilots (including hauler alts and a scout or 2) to down your ship in hi sec hardly qualifies as an easy task. You're going to have to make it very worthwhile in your little freighter.
The aggressors are depending on a good chunk of the freighters loot surviving the explosion. Now if your going to fill it with 15bil+ worth of lots of different items then your just asking for trouble.
If you think you should be able to move around such massive amounts of ISK completely risk free in empire then your thoughts differ from mine, and presumably from the Dev's given the current situation. There is no rule which insists your freighter has to be full every time, if you have so much valuable cargo then you can spare the time to transport it in seperate loads or run the risk of being ganked. Exact same rules apply to all hauling.
As far as I can remember the market existed before freighters and seemed to work fine for traders & industrial corps. You've simply becomes too used to how much easier it was with freighters recently.
The fact freighters did not drop loot, was not working as intended. As demonstrated by the fact it was tried to be fixed before but got delayed. Maybe I should have petitioned every freighter I popped because I got no loot so the pilot was presumably metagaming?
In terms of defense a shuttle has no defensive capability so perhaps they should not drop loot? In realistic terms if a hauler is ganked by 5 battleships it has no defensive capability. Maybe it should be extended so if your ganked at all you do not drop loot.
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